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Finding Your Niche, Systems, & More with Ahmed Helmi

February 10, 2020


This week, I am speaking with Ahmed Helmi, VP and Division Manager for Johnston & Daniel, a Division of Royal LePage Real Estate in Toronto, Ontario.

Ahmed has nearly done it all over his 17 years in the real estate business and has been successful at every turn. I really enjoyed talking to him about:

  • How Ahmed’s Immigrant Experience contributed to his success
  • What attracted Ahmed to the real estate business
  • How anyone can work hard and succeed in real estate – you may need to “sleep faster” but you can do it
  • How the competitiveness in our business keeps us sharp
  • Finding and working a niche or specialization to capture more than your fair share of the market
  • How remaining true to your values adds to your competitive edge
  • Relationships and trust as the keys to long-term success
  • Avoiding the most common sources of conflict with other real estate professionals
  • How having the right systems can help ensure you always dot your “I’s” and cross your “t’s”

I think you’re going to find a TON of value in this conversation!

Ahmed Helmi’s Links

Topics and Timing

Episode Transcript

Start of Interview

Bob Burns: My guest this week is a really impressive individual. He manages one of the largest and most productive real estate offices, for one of the largest real estate companies in the world, in the largest Board of REALTORS® in the world; but what really impresses me about this individual is that he is not one of those people who just got put in charge because he knew the right people. This guy did the work. Step by step, incremental success, by incremental success to advance in his career. He started out as an agent with Royal LePage seventeen years ago. Then, he got his broker’s license. Then, he became a manager for a smaller real estate office. He got involved with the board and chaired the arbitration committee for his board. He moved on to managing a bigger office. Then, an even bigger office. Then, he became a vice president. Then, a division manager.

Today, Ahmed Helmi is the VP and division manager for Johnston & Daniel, a division of Royal LePage Real Estate in Toronto, Ontario. Ahmed has also just joined Leader’s Edge Training as a coach.

So, Ahmed, thanks so much for coming on the show. I am totally thrilled that you’ve agreed to spend some time with us!

Ahmed Helmi: Bob, I’m more thrilled than you to be here. Honestly, I really appreciate the intro. You made me sound like some amazing guy. Thank you.

Bob Burns: Well, it’s easy when you have a background like yours. It’s so, so impressive. So, folks listening, we’ll get into the business side of the discussion in just a minute, but I want to start by letting you get to know a little bit more about Ahmed, the person.

So Ahmed, when we were together in Florida a couple weeks ago. You mentioned that scuba diving is something you like to do in your free time. Where’s your favorite place to dive?

Ahmed Helmi: I would say the Red Sea by far. The Red Sea is just absolutely amazing. Now, I haven’t been everywhere. I hopefully will be going to Thailand later on this year, and that’s a place where diving is phenomenal as well, and I’m looking forward to that. But yeah, the Red Sea is one of my favorite. But then again, you know, I’m a biased because of the fact that I am originally from there. I was born in Egypt. So, because of that, I have a tendency to go back. But then again, I only, for the most part go back so I can get into the water and do some diving in the Red Sea. That’s one of my favorite places of all time. Yeah, for sure.

Bob Burns: That’s interesting and I want to ask you more about where you’re from, but I don’t know much about diving. I’ve gone snorkeling before, but never scuba diving. It’s on my bucket list of things to learn. But what is it about the Red Sea that is so special?

Ahmed Helmi: When you’re under the water…So, before I tell you about the Red Sea and under the water, I’ll tell you that sharks actually like to eat snorkelers. Okay? Just to let you know. You won’t hear about a shark going after a diver, but you’ll hear about sharks eating, you know, people that are floating on the top. So, word of advice – take up some scuba diving.

Bob Burns: Thanks for that, and I’ll really remember that the next time I’m floating around the top of the water. Thanks Ahmed.

Ahmed Helmi: Yeah, because you look like a seal. So, they’re kind of like, “Hmm, I’m going to go up and take a bite of this guy.” Anyways, I’ve never had any issues with sharks. I love sharks. They’re just magnificent and yeah, I love being in the water. I can state…I’ve taught scuba diving for many years as well. My son and I started off, as a matter of fact, we actually got…we did our open water portion in Florida. We were in Pensacola, Florida. My son was nine years old, and he is now 31. So, you can do the math. It’s been quite a while that we’ve been diving. And I’ve been teaching and training diving. Again, one of those things that you get into, you love it, and then you just keep…I’m a learner. I love learning. I love doing more, and the more I see that I like something, the more I want to get into it. So, I’ve done…I was actually coaching divers and training divers right up to the master levels. So, people that want to train and learn to be trainers, that’s one of the things that that I was doing. It’s incredible. It’s a feeling like no other. It’s like jumping from an airplane and you’re all by yourself. It’s kind of the same thing.

Bob Burns: That’s really interesting to me. So, maybe you’ve just moved diving up on my bucket list a couple notches, but you didn’t answer my question about the Red Sea. What about the Red Sea is different compared to other places that you’ve dived?

Ahmed Helmi: The abundance. The abundance of fish. The abundance of sea life. The abundance of corals. The amount of…there’s not a spot along the coast of the Red Sea that you would not see corals, and you would not see sea life. So, no matter where it is, you just grab a tank, grab a BCD, jump in the water, and you will see tons of stuff everywhere you go.

Ahmed’s Immigrant Experience

Bob Burns: That sounds amazing. And that feeling of kind of being by yourself is something that I’ve always kind of been drawn to in various adventures in my life.

So, I want to talk a little bit more about your experience in coming to Canada. So, you came from Egypt, right?

Ahmed Helmi: That’s correct. Yeah, I was 12 when I moved to Canada.

Bob Burns: So, you were 12 when your family moved to Canada. What was it like as a 12 year old to move halfway around the world? New country, new language, certainly different climate, different people. You had to relearn everything. What was that like as a 12-year-old?

Ahmed Helmi: It was surreal. Really. When we first went to the Canadian Embassy to be interviewed, my parents… my dad had already moved to Canada, and my mom and dad had been separated since I was born. So, we were kind of living within different circumstances, and I went to the Canadian Embassy to be interviewed at 11 years old. And I remember clearly the gentleman who spoke to us was talking about hockey, and I did not know what the hell hockey was at the time. Hockey? What is that? I’ve never heard of it, ever. So, he was asking me if I would play hockey, and I was like, “I don’t know.” I didn’t speak any English at the time. So, English was something that was very foreign to me. I did not go to…my sister had gone to an English school. So, she learned some, but for me, it was something that was totally foreign. As you know, Arabic is written from the right to the left. We open books from the right, not from the left, and so on. And so, it was…yeah, it was totally different. You come to Canada, you learn very quickly, and you assimilate. So, it’s been an incredible journey, I would say.

Bob Burns: Do you think that being an immigrant gives you an advantage in business? I see so many immigrants running successful businesses. I’ve got to think…I should do the research on this, but I’ve got to think, as a percentage, there are a higher percentage of immigrant business owners than the native business owners. And I wonder if there’s something to that. What are your thoughts on that?

Ahmed Helmi: So, in Canada, I would say, you know, everybody’s is an immigrant, pretty well. We all came just at different times. So yeah, there’s a lot of drive, definitely, for an immigrant. I came from very modest beginnings. I mean, I did everything you can possibly imagine. You probably have seen my resume, only partial. But I also started…when I put myself through school, I was a little silly. I got married at 19 years old and so, I had to put myself through school, literally. So, I used to work midnight to 8:00 in the morning, and then from 8:00 in the morning, I would go to college, and I would be in college all day, Then, I would come home, sleep a few hours, get up again and go to work. And then, from work, go to school, and all that sort of thing. So, you learn to do whatever you can in order to succeed, and I think it’s the drive. Part of what you have in your life…now, there are those that are driven, and there are those that just kind of coast along. And I think for the most part, it doesn’t matter what your background is. Doesn’t matter where you come from. I think it’s all about drive.

Succeeding Business and Transitioning to Real Estate

Bob Burns: And that’s what I love about the real estate business – you don’t have to be a brilliant genius. You don’t have to be rich. But, you do have to get up every day and outwork everyone else. And we’ll talk more about that in a minute, but I’m curious…Before you got into the real estate business, you had a couple of other successful businesses that you had started. What were you doing before real estate, and what was it about real estate that made you want to shift careers?

Ahmed Helmi: So, you’ve probably noticed that, you know, out of my resume and so on, that I actually studied mechanical engineering in school. Which is what I studied initially, before I got into business. And so, while I was going to school, and like I mentioned, you know, I used to work…I had to work in order to put myself through school. So in the summertime, I used to do different things in order to work in the daytime, rather than working at night, because I used to work midnight to 8:00 in the morning every day to put myself through school. So when the summer came, I always looked for something different to do that I can do.

So, one of the jobs I did, was to work for Seneca College for the Center for Entrepreneurship and Innovations. And we helped companies to increase their productivity. To improve their flow and that sort of thing. So, one of the places that I worked at, I worked for a company that needed some assistance with their manufacturing processes. So, we improved manufacturing process for that company. The owner was impressed with my work. He offered for me to work for him, and that was just before my last year in college. And so, I of course said, “Thank you very much, but I still have a year to go, and I’ll have to do this.” I finished my last year. I graduated with an award from a company called Canada Packers at the time, and they offered me an opportunity to work with them.

Canada Packers is a huge company. It is now… they’ve sold all their divisions. It’s down to what is called Maple Leaf Foods, and that’s a large enough company, I mean. So anyways, I work with Canada Packers for a while, because they did offer me an opportunity to work with them in management. And so, I went from mechanical engineering, directly into management – junior manager. Worked for them for a while. Started taking business courses, because that’s when I went to York University to take business. And then, you know, felt that I was just a number. My work was done within a couple of hours in the morning, and the rest of the day, you had to kind of make do with what you have and figure out some something else to do.

So, I ended up basically getting bored very quickly. I was doing a lot of different things. I did some projects, and it just got to the point where I got bored. So, I took the opportunity and moved to go and work for the company that had already, you know, been giving me an opportunity to work in the manufacturing. And so, I went from there to work with that particular company. It was a leather manufacturing company, a leather goods manufacturing company, and I worked there to run their entire operation in terms of the manufacturing part of the operations. So, I worked there, and I decided, well such a small company. I can’t really grow after two years. So, I decided to do something different.

Well, what did I know how to do? My father, when he first came to Canada, he worked as a cleaner in a cleaning company. And so, I learned how to use machines. I learned how to do many things that had to do with cleaning. So, I knew mechanical engineering. I knew cleaning, and I thought, “Well, I can open up a cleaning company.” And so, I did. I started a cleaning company, and I had somebody do some telemarketing for me and get appointments. I went out and did the sales, and started the company, and I ran that company for fourteen and a half years before I finally decided to sell it. And that was when I got into real estate.

Bob Burns: That’s really cool. So, the progression…really, the common theme that I heard through your progression, Ahmed, is you’re used to being busy. You’re used to having a lot of new things constantly. You know, work all night, study all day, sleep a little bit, rinse, repeat. Do it over, and over, and over again. Arnold Schwarzenegger describes his immigrant experience very similarly. That, you know, he had big goals, and he didn’t have a lot of time for sleep. So, Arnold’s advice is to everybody who thinks you need to sleep eight hours a night is: sleep faster. So, it sounds like you ascribe to the same “sleep faster” philosophy.

Finding a Niche and Standing Out in a Competitive Marketplace

Bob Burns: So, you got into real estate after running a couple of successful businesses. I happen to believe that in terms of competitiveness, there is nothing…Like, if you were comparing businesses from a competitiveness and sales standpoint, I think real estate is like a drag race. It is just raw competitiveness. Can I out-work, can I out-hustle everybody else just on the power of my knowledge and personality.

So, coming into real estate from a different type of business, and a different type of background, what was it like to start over, really? And start from scratch, and start building this real estate business that I think, maybe was a little more competitive than the environments you came from?

Ahmed Helmi: Absolutely. Real estate is extremely competitive. Especially in our marketplace. We’ve got 53,000 REALTORS® in our real estate board. In an area…you know, the Greater Toronto area is about five million five, six million people, and that’s an incredibly huge piece of real estate and we’ve got more than 53,000 REALTORS® in our main board, the Toronto Real Estate Board. So yeah, it’s extremely competitive. I would say that it was not simple to move into the real estate sales. I didn’t have proper training at the time. I think, when you first start, you know, this is simply the type of business that you’re on your own. You’re absolutely, totally on your own. Unless you get an incredible manager who is really going to assist in getting you moving.

With my business background, I found it easier to get into this business. Simply because I didn’t need the assistance or the hand-holding like most people do. I just went out there and started doing things. I found it…There was a couple of niches in the marketplace that naturally just came to me. Again, you know, talking from the point of view of running your own business and understanding what businesses is like. Being able to put together business plans, and so forth. So, when I decided to get into real estate, I was running my own business, and I decided to sell that business. So, I placed ads in in some of the commercial real estate print that we have here. Mostly magazines for commercial real estate, and I started getting phone calls that people were saying, “Oh,” you know, they would they would recognize my name as an Egyptian name, and they’d look at my face as we REALTORS® love to show our faces everywhere, it’s part of our branding, and they would say, “Okay. You look like an Egyptian guy. Do you speak Arabic?” And I was like, “Yeah, I do.” And so, definitely there was a niche there. So, I started working that niche. And I worked the Arabic speaking community. And I found that that worked very well for me to get started.

The other thing is understanding business. Being able to work in the commercial field. And a lot of REALTORS® shy away from the commercial field. Especially when we’re talking about small commercial. Anything up to ten million dollars or so. The big brokerage houses don’t really care about dealing with it as much, and the smaller individuals don’t really know how to handle it, and would rather stay away from it because it’s just scary for them. So, I found definitely a couple of niche areas where what helped me along, And then, from there, I learned quite a bit about real estate. It was it was phenomenal, getting started in this business.

Bob Burns: I think what you said about finding your niche, or a couple of niches, is really important. I did the math while you were speaking. So, 53,000 REALTORS® in your board, five million people in your market. That’s about ninety four people per REALTOR®, and if people move, on average, once every ten years, that’s not enough transactions to make a living if you just divided it evenly, So, from pure arithmetic alone, we would be well-served to find a specialization. Find a niche or two, and build on that to capture a much greater than our fair-share of the market. That’s been something I’ve always taught, is how do I help people get more than their fair-share of the real estate pie, and it sounds like, for your business, Ahmed, it was finding a couple of those niches and building on it.

Ahmed Helmi: Absolutely. It came natural, and I just found myself moving towards that. Obviously residential is a huge area, and is the primary part of our business here. However, most people, as you mentioned, in terms of the real estate board, most people in a real estate board…I’d say about 60%, do less than 1 deal a year.

Bob Burns: So, that leaves a lot of room for folks that know how to work, and want to work, and want to hustle, and want to find an angle. But, I want to get back to this whole niche concept for a second, because Toronto is incredibly diverse. You are certainly not the only Egyptian, Arabic speaking REALTOR® in Toronto. So, you had to have done something in addition to just being who you are to stand out. What was that?

Ahmed Helmi: Professionalism, honesty, integrity, being able to…just, people, once they work with you once, you’re able to infiltrate, and move forward. And then, it becomes, normally…just…the only way that you can improve in this business, and do better in this business, is not to be transactional. It’s about working the relationship. Relationship building, and especially in the ethnic communities, once people start to get to know you, you become the go-to guy. It doesn’t matter who else is selling real estate. The relationship becomes very, very strong, and it doesn’t become a transaction anymore. It’s much more than that. But running your business as a business is really, really important.

Relationships are the Key

Bob Burns: So, running your business as a business, and focusing on that relationship. Now, I want to zero in on that whole relationship thing that you said, because right now, and for the last couple of years, there’s been a lot of talk in our business about “dis-ruptors,” and “dis-intermediaries,” and “dis-other things.” I happen to believe that…you can’t…If the relationship is the core of our business, that all of the rest of this stuff – all of this technology, and all of this lead generation stuff, and all of these iBuyers, and all of these new “dis-insert-buzzword-here” things will not be able to dis-place us at the center of the real estate transaction.

So, as a coach, and as a manager of real estate agents, how do you help your agents really, really zero in and focus on that customer service aspect, that relationship thing? Because those two things are a lot…they’re kind of boring. When you talk about them, you know, they’re not, you know, buying zip codes on Zillow. They’re not the next great, you know, automatic drip campaign, or social media ads. It’s kind of boring to focus on relationships. That’s been the same for the last 150 years of real estate. How do you get your agents to focus on the boring stuff that’s going to allow them to make a great living in this business over the course of a long time?

Ahmed Helmi: So, I don’t actually think it’s boring. I think it’s phenomenal. I mean, the relationship stuff. I mean, that is the bloodline of our business, is the relationship. And all you need to do is be genuine, and be yourself, and work with people that you can connect with. And sometimes, we don’t connect with everybody. Sometimes, we walk into a situation, and we just can’t match…there’s something there that people just don’t connect. And if that’s the case, walk away. You don’t have to work with everybody, but you can work with people that you choose to work with, and that’s the beauty of our business, too. The fact that you get to choose who you work with, and relationship building is not something that you have to really work hard on, but you have to work consistently on, and being genuine.

I mean, think about it. In our marketplace, the average home what we’ll say, overall in the GTA, the average home is about a million dollars. In my market, like in our very small area where we work in the central Toronto, averages between, we’ll say, about three million dollars in our marketplace. But really, the average overall for the for the general Greater Toronto Area, you’re looking at about a million dollars. Well, am I going to give that million dollar home to somebody I don’t trust, to sell for me? A million dollar home…the again, commissions are not insignificant here in our marketplace. I know that in the US, typically, they’re charging, you know, we’re not going to talk about exact, or averages, or so on, but you know, we charge about two and a half percent to sell a property. It’s about five percent normally, there abouts. You know, some charge more, or some charge less, because we have competition, but really, you’re making $25,000 on a transaction. How can you pay somebody $50,000 to sell your home, and you know, on both ends, when you can’t trust them? It has to start with trust. And I know that the National Association of REALTORS® will tell you the number one thing that works that is important to any seller or buyer, is to be able to trust the REALTOR®. And the only way trust comes, is by building a relationship. And our REALTORS® look at relationship building…again, you know, we all teach…you’ve got to run a business, you’ve got to have a CRM. The CRM has to be able to help you connect with your clients. You have to get up every morning. You’ve got to send the cards, you know, around Christmas. You’ve got to start to send the cards for Hanukkah if that’s your clientele, or your friends. You’ve got to send stuff around if you’re, you know, in the Muslim community.

You’ve got to be out there to build that relationship. It’s really easy. All you have to do is just be good to people, and just be a normal, friendly person. You don’t have to be fake. It’s really important that it’s genuine, and I think the genuine part comes out. It just makes you connect, and builds that trust. And trust is the most important thing in my business.

Bob Burns: I think you said so many really important things there, and I can hear people hitting the rewind button now as they listen to catch some of the stuff that you just shared. The big takeaway that I that I got from what you just said is, a lot of agents are sometimes unhappy with their business. They’ve got clients they don’t really like working with, and they get up every day, and it’s stressful, and it’s hard to push forward and go to work. It probably means, if you’re feeling that way about your business, it probably means that you should redouble your efforts to focus on the relationships, and focus on finding more people like you. Where you can be yourself. Where you can be genuine. Where you can strip away the layers, and go to work everyday, and just have fun hanging out with people that you like, and you care about, and you connect with on the same level. If you’re not doing that every day, you’re going to be forever stuck on this treadmill of paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for various zip codes and so forth, and all of these websites. You’re going to be stuck on that treadmill forever. Paying to work with business that you really don’t love, but you feel like you have to because you’re not investing consistently, as you said Ahmed, consistently in the relationships that you have. So what you just said is fantastic advice, and I hope people rewind and take a few notes about what you just shared. Awesome stuff.

Ahmed Helmi: I agree. I honestly feel that once you build relationships, you’ve got a business for life.

Lessons from Arbitrations

Bob Burns: What a great opportunity. That’s why you’ve got to love real estate. So, I want to kind of turn the page a little bit. I think we’ve made our point on the relationship-trust factor.

Now, I mentioned in your introduction that you served on the arbitration panel for the Toronto Board of REALTORS®, and with 53,000 plus members, I’m guessing there were plenty of arbitrations and mediations and so forth to keep you busy. From your time serving on that panel, what were some of the biggest takeaways for you? What did you learn, and how have you incorporated those lessons into your business?

Ahmed Helmi: So, we learn a lot from our work that we do for the real estate boards, and for some of the other…all the volunteer organizations that we volunteer for. Whether you sit on the board of directors, or are you’re doing mediations, or arbitrations…but I’ll tell you the one takeaway, for sure, from the arbitration, is that it’s tough working with buyers without contracts. Most of our issues that happen typically is, one REALTOR® saying, “Hold on a second. I work with this buyer. I did all this stuff.” And then they walked into an open house, or they’ve seen this other property, and the other REALTOR® kind of induced them, let’s say, into purchasing through the listing agent. And, “That money belongs to me. I’ve worked hard, and I want that money.”

So initially, it used to be with the Toronto Real Estate Board that the person who signs the Agreement of Purchase and Sale…So, when you procure that particular contract, then the money’s yours. Well, not so. There are a lot of different issues. You have to look at intent. You have to look at did the REALTOR® know, or aught the REALTOR® have known that this buyer was working with someone else? So, you have to ask the questions. So, we’ve actually altered our contracts, our buyer agency contracts, to ensure that the questions are being asked, and to have the buyer now initial, saying that they are not working with another REALTOR®. That they have not worked with another REALTOR® prior to signing this agreement. And most of the time, it’s finding out if the…you have to dig and dig and dig, and find out if the REALTOR® had asked the right questions about the contract, and the existence of a previous contract before they start working with the buyer.

So, there have been instances where we’ve taken money that was already earned, or paid I should say, to one REALTOR®, sometimes $60,000, that was paid as a commission for that particular contract, and we’ve decided that, yes, there was enough reason to see that perhaps that the REALTOR® could have done better, and the original contract that was signed with the first REALTOR® had to be honored. and so, we take money from the one REALTOR®, and then give it to the other. Unfortunately, not everybody becomes a happy person, but it teaches people lessons very, very quickly. You learn a lot about paperwork, and contract laws.

Bob Burns: A lot about that, and I think that’s really smart for people to refocus on dotting the “I’s” and crossing the “T’s.” That is just a heartbreaking lesson to learn. When that much money is at stake, and you’ve done some of the work, and to have…yeah, it’s just, I don’t want to get into the ins and outs, and everybody’s board is different, and you’ve got to check with your management, and with your legal counsel, and all of that local stuff to get advice, but the big thing that I take away from what you just said is: be diligent. Have the hard conversations. Do your paperwork. Dot your “I’s,” cross your “T’s.” It’s when you start cutting corners, or taking shortcuts, or avoiding some of those uncomfortable or more difficult conversations, that down the line, can cause you to run into trouble. So, great advice.

Ahmed Helmi: Absolutely. So, having systems is really important. If your system already exists, and it says that I’m going to go through asking these questions. Then, that’s part of your system. And if you prove that, then you can easily show that you’ve done everything that you can do in terms of due diligence.

Doing the Work

Bob Burns: Makes sense. Now, we’ve been going for about half an hour or so, and I’d like to wrap up the conversation.

You’ve been very generous with your time Ahmed, but I do want to end with one final question. And that is, you’ve been doing this a long time. You’ve been very, very successful at every stage of the game. Whether it was in sales as a salesperson, as a manager, as a recruiter, as a more senior executive in an organization. What’s one piece of advice that you’d like to share with everybody listening? And before you answer, let me give you an idea…The folks listening to this are real estate agents. They’re real estate assistants. They’re real estate managers. They’re real estate executives. From all over North America – different territories, different markets. It’s really, really neat to watch the reporting on the podcast, and see the folks that are tuning in, and getting advice. So, your advice has to be pretty broad, but what’s one piece of advice that you’d like to share with everybody listening that has contributed to your success in this industry?

Ahmed Helmi: There’s no magic pill. There really is no magic pill. Bottom line is, you have to work hard. You have to be driven. You have to get up early. If you want to do well, you wake up before everybody else and get the work done. It’s important that you work on your business, just as much as you work in your business. Working in a business is very important. Working on your business is just as important, because they’re going…In this business, it’s cyclical, and you know, when the cycle is down, you need to continue to keep your…you know, if you’re talking to REALTORS®, REALTORS® really need to continue to keep their eyes on the basics. There’s really no magic pill. The basics is where it’s at. You’re still a salesperson. You still need to do lead gen. You still need to foster your clientele. Otherwise, it becomes a transactional business, and that’s not what we’re in. So, build relationships. Wake up early. Work on your business. That’s most important in this business. And keep your eyes focused on basics.

Bob Burns: That is fantastic advice, and I always need to be reminded of that. And I think I’m like everybody else. So, that’s really good advice. We’ll end with that.

Music: “My Everything” by Roads used under license from Tribe of Noise.

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